Ep. 22: How To Be A Rockstar RevOps Job Candidate (& How to Hire One)

As the RevOps job market accelerates, there’s no better time to find the role you’ve always wanted. If you’re looking to land a job in RevOps or want to make strategic hires to grow your RevOps team, you won’t want to miss this episode of shOPS Talk.


Joining us is one of the leading RevOps recruiters, Jerry Bonura. Jerry’s sharing everything you need to know to become a rockstar RevOps job candidate and land your next job.

Watch the recording to learn:
– How to stand out when applying for a RevOps job
– Tips to ace any RevOps interview
– How to hire rockstar RevOps pros for your team


Speaker 1: There we go. Webinar in. This is my favorite part of it. You gotta start seeing all the attendee lists, just start filing in right now, so it’s fantastic. Well, welcome everyone. We got a lot of folks joining. A lot of, uh, familiar faces and names I already see jumping in. So we’ll let everybody, uh, get in, get situated, grab a water, grab a beer, whatever time of the day it is for you. Uh, no judgment here. So we’ll, uh, we’ll [00:00:30] get everything kicked off in, uh, in just a second, son. 

Speaker 2: Yeah, I was wondering about grabbing a beer for this, but no, let’s, 

Speaker 1: Um, I’ve sold the, I’ve sold the hydration train. Uh, I would be lying to you if I didn’t say, uh, the city of Atlanta has been celebrating a little bit over the last two or three days, so, yeah. Uh, you know, that’s what happens when you go 26 years without a championship and you finally win something. Uh, so we’re, uh, we’re all still riding that high right now in Atlanta, so, yeah. 

Speaker 2: [00:01:00] Congrats. You guys deserve it. 

Speaker 1: Thank you. Thank you. I, I say that I’m gonna look at the attendee list, and I can tell you anybody that lives in the Greater Houston area is probably gonna start dropping off right now from that comment. But, uh, <laugh>, that’s all right, <laugh>. So. Well, good stuff, man. We’ve, uh, we got a lot of talk about and very little amount of time to do it, so we’ll get things kicked off. Uh, JV better knows Jerry Bon, uh, pumped to have you here, man. I’ve, uh, for everybody that’s just joining, um, if it’s your first time, welcome to Shops Talk. [00:01:30] Um, happy to have you here. Please join more and more of these as we keep having them, um, and definitely check out our YouTube channel where we got all of our recordings on. But, um, first and foremost, we always like to thank, uh, our sponsors for helping us put this on. 

Speaker 1: Um, Jen Wayland, the entire team over at Salesforce, thank you so much for, uh, continuing to support this episode and continue to support elevating the rev ops world. Uh, we wouldn’t be able to do this now, going on year two, uh, without their support, uh, and continued excitement for what we’re doing. So we always like to thank, uh, the folks that are behind [00:02:00] the scenes, uh, helping do this, especially Sarah in our room as well, uh, who’s right off camera, who puts all the hard work in to put us together. So, uh, thank you for everybody for helping us out and get this moving. That being said, uh, jv, I’m gonna turn the mic over to you, let you introduce yourself. Uh, excited to have you here, though, but tell everybody who you are and what you do. 

Speaker 2: Hey, yeah, thanks Brad. Uh, and thank you to the sponsors. Uh, agree, Janet, Salesforce is awesome. Uh, talk to her a couple times. Uh, yeah, I’m Jerry. I’m with 20 Pine. We are a talent firm focused exclusively on [00:02:30] the rev ops ecosystem. Uh, so helping companies hire anything from a sales ops analyst to VP of Rev op. Um, also do a lot of like Salesforce, you know, and systems roles as well, cuz, you know, typically fall under Rev ops. Uh, yeah, I’ve been doing this for a long time. Love it. Love the space. Let’s, uh, live and breathe this stuff. So yeah, pump to talk. 

Speaker 1: I love it. I love it. And looking through, uh, even on the attending list, I know we got a lot of familiar faces in here. Uh, Kevin, who’s been on Shops [00:03:00] Talk with us before. Glad to see you in man, uh, hope all as well. Um, Jerry, we know what time of the year this is other than just coming off the World series, which I know we’ll talk about probably a hundred more times in the next 20 minutes. But, um, we are in fiscal year planning for next year. One of the biggest things that is on everybody’s plate right now and everybody’s mind is hiring, building out your rev op team. Even if you’re on this, not necessarily in a management position or a leadership position, you might also be looking at your next adventure in the [00:03:30] rev op space. So, um, big topic today when it comes to how to find and hire rev ops bad asses. 

Speaker 1: Um, you have a, a very special and fun job because you get to identify those folks for your customers, talk to ’em every day, and place a lot of badass rev ops folks in, uh, in those seats. So, um, very specific reason, which is why we had you here. So, um, we’re excited to ha to jump right into it, especially for those again in this November, October, November, December timeframe is we’re all planning for, uh, next fiscal and [00:04:00] calendar year. No better time to talk about hiring for rev ops. Um, first thing we’ll do, though, we always like to have our folks on the call participate. Uh, we’ve got a lot of folks here, by the way. I love it. Um, please be interactive. If you have a question for us, don’t hesitate. Jump in the chat, jump in the question and ask it. Um, but we actually have a first question for you. Um, <laugh>, are you a rockstar Rev ops job candidate? So, jump into the poll real quick. Uh, we always like to get a feel for our [00:04:30] audience, you know, how relevant this, uh, this topic is. But my get is we’re going to get a, uh, quite a few yeses. Uh, maybe a few nos, but also quite a few maybe. Um, I’ll, I’ll throw this out there. This is an anonymous poll we don’t get to, to get to share it. So if you’re thinking, do I want to, yes, I’m, am I looking for a rev op job? 

Speaker 2: Uh, 

Speaker 1: It looks like we, uh, we got it done. Ooh, a good mix of this. Uh, 61%, [00:05:00] yes, 7%, no, 32% are, uh, are in that maybe period. So, um, I love it. And we have some folks, uh, in the chat. Um, Vinny, I know you’re always looking to hire a rockstar, so, um, love it. Um, first things first, let’s kick this stuff off. Um, we’ve got lots to cover. We’ve got a lot of questions. Again, if you have any questions, please drop ’em in the chat, but we’ll go rolling. Um, 

Speaker 2: Ooh, 

Speaker 1: Start big, [00:05:30] and we’re gonna drill it into this, but maybe why are we seeing the rev ops market just absolutely on fire and booming right now? 

Speaker 2: Yeah, so, uh, a few reasons I would say. I, I mean, number one, I think, um, because of the covid hiring pause last year, where pretty much everyone was on a hiring freeze, you know, this year it’s just been back full force, better than ever. Uh, it’s kind of insane actually. Um, I’ve personally, like I’ve been doing this since 2016. I’ve never seen the demand like this [00:06:00] before. Um, a couple other reasons that I think, uh, number one, I think, I mean, we’re all seeing a ton of investment in the space. Um, I think VCs are talking about it a lot more. I mean, I’ve, over the years spoke to a bunch of ’em who’ve mentioned how important, uh, sales and rev ops is, you know, for their portfolio companies. Um, and I think they’re passing the importance down to, you know, leadership at their portfolio companies. 

Speaker 2: Um, and honestly, just like a pure supply and demand of talent, [00:06:30] uh, there’s just way more demand for talent than there is supply right now. Um, again, why that is, could be for a few reasons. Um, there’s definitely a buzzword effect. Um, you know, rev ops sexy buzzword, everyone’s talking about it. Everyone wants it. Um, but lastly, my final thing that makes me so happy is that a lot of people who were a team of one are finally getting their hires this year. Um, that, like, I’ve just, I’ve heard from over the years, [00:07:00] so many people who are a team of one and had a million things on their plate, they’re finally getting their hires and, uh, makes me super happy. So I’m, I’m, I’m glad that’s happening, and I think that’s part of why. So, 

Speaker 3: Can you hear me now? 

Speaker 2: Yeah. 

Speaker 3: Fantastic. Hey, look, nothing like some technical difficulties as we, uh, as we go about our day in shops talk, right? It would only be normal that we have that. So, um, apologies to everyone for, uh, for that. You just kept running with it though, so we’re totally fine. <laugh> 

Speaker 2: Good. [00:07:30] Hey, sure. Matt could run with this for hours. Let’s, anyway, um, 

Speaker 3: Oh, well, good stuff, man. Um, keep you posted. I know we were talking about why it’s booming and you just kept running with it. So, um, I I, I, I heard all of it, and for everybody that was, uh, slacking us or jumping in the chat, thank you for, uh, for letting us know, <laugh>, we were, uh, that we’re bumping out a little bit. Um, I agree with every one of your pieces of it as far as like what we’re seeing this boom for. The biggest thing I think is, uh, I think [00:08:00] to your point, there’s so much influx of capital now into this. We see this from a VC back company ourselves, where, uh, we have a lot of high demand to go and deploy capital. That’s one thing. I think you said it best though on the, the covid side of things. A lot of folks paused for a little bit, um, couldn’t agree with you more, but I’ll, I’ll give this other one thing. 

Speaker 3: And I think this is not necessarily in the last 18 months, but more of a function of the last four or five, six years. The role in the capacity in which the role is, uh, is being used has shifted dramatically. [00:08:30] Um, the amount of responsibilities rev ops folks are now doing, not only managing a tech stack, but managing reporting and analytics and enablement. Uh, it’s not a one person job anymore, even for the small companies, especially for the big companies of 5, 6, 700 people usually had one or two people doing it. We see even a lot of our customers now have rev op teams of 15, 20, 25, um, as they continue to grow and scale. So just the sheer demand of what we’re looking for is, uh, is a big piece of it too. So, um, I’m [00:09:00] gonna jump into, uh, into that second question. Again, apologies for everyone or to everyone for, uh, a little bit of technical difficulties, but hey, we, we roll with ’em. Um, in your opinion, what is the biggest differentiator for, I’m gonna call it a good to great rev ops candidate, because you talk to a lot of folks, no doubt. That’s literally your job every day, is talk to rev ops rock stars, kinda like me. Um, what, what is your biggest, uh, common denominator for a differentiation point of a, just a total rev ops rockstar? 

Speaker 2: Yeah, so I would say [00:09:30] it’s being proactive, um, proactive versus reactive. I mean, there’s some great people who like, execute on whatever you tell them needs to be done. Uh, but I’d say the, the, the true rock stars, ballers killers out there are people who are more proactive, who, you know, they’re not told, but, you know, they notice, Hey, I’ve noticed this could be way better, way faster, way more efficient. And they take that initiative and build or fix or whatever they do, um, to make it better. I, I would say also, [00:10:00] um, the kind of going off that like analytical and strategic skills where it’s more than just like building the reports, um, and the forecasting, the pipeline and all that, but analyzing, identifying trends and recommending actions, solutions and changes because of that. Um, and also as far as like the real rock stars, it’s, it’s the true rev ops. 

Speaker 2: Uh, now listen back in my day, they used to just be called sales ops. You know, remember when we were kids, it was just sales ops and [00:10:30] then sales and marketing ops. Now, rev ops, uh, and listen, rev ops still sometimes like the title. Sometimes the person is still only focused on sales ops. Um, and sometimes they’re only a Salesforce admin too. But that’s a whole nother conversation. Don’t get me started. Uh, but, uh, like true rev ops, like actually sales, marketing, customer success, that’s like the true baller stuff. Um, and honestly, like customer success ops, I can’t stress that enough. Been hearing it like I feel like a couple months ago outta nowhere. Just everyone’s coming into [00:11:00] us for that. And like, it’s, it’s like, uh, whether they need a, a rev ops leader who is really skilled at CS ops or, um, a rev ops leader is hiring someone to just purely focus on CS ops, um, that’s been booming. Like haven’t seen that before. 

Speaker 3: It’s, it’s wild. Um, one of the best, uh, one of the best lines, I’ll give two very quick quotes. Um, Terminus, where I came from prior to starting Sonar, our, uh, our C e o Tim Cop had a great line. And, uh, it’s called retention is the [00:11:30] new acquisition, and mm-hmm <affirmative>, yes, new business is always important. We always have to focus on these new logos and new dollars coming in the door. But, um, retention is the new acquisition and who owns and holds a lot of the, uh, retention side of things, customer success ops. And so again, you start to see that piece of it. The, uh, the other cool one, I was actually on the, on a call with, um, Justin, Michael, I know a lot of folks here know Justin, uh, in the rev op space and, and greater sales, uh, leadership space. 

Speaker 3: He asked me the same thing as [00:12:00] I brand, what is rev ops? It’s like, I’m gonna start with the inverse. I’m gonna tell you what rev ops isn’t. Uh, rev ops isn’t your Salesforce admin. Rev ops isn’t your, your help desk. Rev ops isn’t your troubleshoot. Uh, just when you think that you’re running into a validation rule and you decide not to read the actual validation rule error, um, he like took me off this ledge for a little bit. But it’s so true cuz I think some people get that misinterpretation of it. Like, oh, this is just sales ops on steroids, or, oh, this is just a Salesforce admin. Not at all. Um, but I thought [00:12:30] it was really funny. I was like, no, we’re, we’re gonna go to the inverse of just telling you what it’s not. Um, that being said, uh, we, we talked a little bit about differentiation of a, a good candidate versus a great candidate. You help customers, your customers find folks across all levels, whether it be the leader side or the IC side. Um, what differentiates or what’s the difference between a rev op IC and a rev op leader? Uh, kind of a loaded question, but I wanna get your thoughts on it cuz you help, uh, help find both. 

Speaker 2: Yeah, so, um, [00:13:00] definitely like, I’d say the proactive reactive piece. Um, like an order taker versus, you know, like a strategic thought leader. Um, I’d say when it comes to leadership, the, uh, the stakeholder management communication piece gets a lot more crucial. Um, especially like being able to say no to the cro r o um, or being able to tell the C-suite, like, actually the data says this, not what you’re saying. We shouldn’t just go with our gut. This is what the data says. Right? That’s, uh, [00:13:30] lot of seeing leaders. Um, also, like I I I’d say kind of the been there before, uh, been there, done that, like, people who have seen, you know, one or multiple companies double triple 10 X in size. Um, you know, as you know, when, when you double the size of the sales team, if, uh, if you don’t do it with, you know, ops in place, a a lot of shit’s gonna break and, and go wrong. Um, you know, not always, but usually does. Uh, so kind of seeing that, being able to, being able to see around the corner, see into the future. [00:14:00] Um, and also, uh, I I’d say kind of building, knowing how to build for what the company’s going to be, not just what it is now. Um, those are a lot of the things we see more in leaders. 

Speaker 3: Absolutely. I, uh, I tell folks a lot cause I, I’ve been asked that question too, like, what’s gonna help me elevate, what’s gonna help me stand out amongst the crown and differentiate that IC versus leader role? Go find out what questions your leader’s asking. And it doesn’t necessarily have to be your rev ops leader, but ask what, what question you get asked the most from your VP [00:14:30] of sales, from your C M O, from your c e O, from your C F O. There’s a big reason why they’re asking that question. If you can figure out how to answer the proactive why, they’re gonna ask you, what was our, you know, conversion rate last quarter from stage two to stage three. You know, how to tactically answer that. We all do. We’re all, all rev ops and Salesforce rock stars on here. We’re not go run that report. 

Speaker 3: Why are they asking that? And if you can think of walk a mile in their shoes and say, you know what? They’re asking this because of X or because [00:15:00] of y or because they wanna see if we’re performing better in this industry, or maybe this rep is performing better than the other. Proactively give ’em that answer. Like, Hey, yes, our conversion rate increased by 5% from this stage to that stage. It’s really because we’re performing better in this industry. And these two, uh, fully ramped reps are now humming on all cylinders. You want to get that next step up pro answer, the proactive why. Um, we do, uh, well, we’ll take a quick break. I wanna provide one, um, one asset for everybody, cuz one question, Jerry, I’m sure you get all the time, is what’s the average salary of [00:15:30] a rev ops role? Um, stop me if you’ve heard that one. 

Speaker 3: Right. Uh, we’ve not high enough. We’ve actually <laugh> we’ve actually done a lot of the heavy lifting for this and Sarah can put this in the, uh, in the chat now. Um, we have a ebook on this and we did an entire survey for it as far as, um, average salaries for rev ops leaders, uh, and IC roles. So we’ll drop that in there. Now we also have a couple of, uh, questions real quick. So, uh, I’m gonna jump to Nico, uh, right now, you know, as a, as a young professional, you know, should we be looking to join established rev ops team or [00:16:00] a company looking to start a new one? Um, I’ll, I’ll I’ll pass it over to you, uh, JV and then I’ll, uh, I’ll answer as well. 

Speaker 2: Oh man, this is is a conversation I had with a lot of people who are earlier in their careers. Um, cuz when, you know, you are like that first hire at a company like you, you learn a lot of stuff on the job. You wear so many more hats. Um, but like a lot of people, you know, and listen, I know some really baller rev ops people who never reported to a more senior rev ops person, they kind of just learned everything on the [00:16:30] job. Um, and luckily there’s, you know, like wizards of ops and, and other communities to like learn from other people. But, um, you know, there’s definitely pros and cons to it. Like you being the person who owns everything and you know, jack of all trades versus like, if you get to work under someone who’s like really experienced and learn from them, you know, learn. 

Speaker 2: Like, I, I don’t know if it’d say learning properly compared to properly, but, you know, um, I mean it’s definitely pros and cons to it. I, I think, you know, when you are part of a team, you’re gonna be a little more siloed. Uh, I dunno if silo’s where, but you, you won’t [00:17:00] be like, you know, running the whole show. Uh, but you will get more mentorship and like collaboration. Um, there’s a lot of, like, like, I, I had a dinner like two years ago with some directors of sales ops in New York, and like every single one of them was a team of one and didn’t know anyone else in sales ops. There was 10 people who were like, director level, awesome people. So, yeah, I mean, I don’t know. It, it’s tough to answer that without knowing the specifics of each situation. 

Speaker 3: Yeah, it’s, uh, it is tough. It’s, it’s a situational answer. I think a lot of that [00:17:30] comes down to the person of what you’re looking for and how you’re trying to excel. Um, but I think one of those common denominators, you did it with a 10 person dinner, we see it all the time in, uh, in, in w ops, surround yourself with other folks of like-mindedness and ask them a lot of questions. You, you can be a team of one and you can still go and accelerate and grow in your career. Uh, the one biggest thing that you wanna learn from everybody else is how did you take that team of one to a team of five? Because that’s what I wanna do. That’s how I wanted to build my [00:18:00] teams. Um, so surround yourself and ask the right questions is the right folks and it’s gonna be a lot easier. Um, I’m gonna, I’m gonna cruise down to this question, and this was a fun one. Um, especially for folks that are, are thinking about getting into the job market or starting to apply for this. Um, what are your best tips to ace any rev ops interviews? Um, you know, what stories should you be talking about in your interviews? Um, you know, where do you think about that when, when you hear it from your customers? Who are the hiring managers? What do they want to hear? [00:18:30] Million dollar question, right? 

Speaker 2: <laugh>? Yeah. Um, so I would definitely say bring data. Like if you can show and like, you know, run these reports in Salesforce, right? Like when you started versus now, like was the average deal size deal cycle was productivity per rep. And there’s a ton of metrics that you could show. And if, you know, if you did positively impact them, uh, bring those stories, uh, bring the data, um, talk about pro like projects you worked on where it was you that identified, [00:19:00] um, an issue or like you, like proactively saw something and were able to make it better and what the results were. Um, I mean I I I help a lot of people with their resumes and it’ll be like, I built this, or I, you know, implemented this. Like, okay, what were the results? Like what, what was the, you know, what were the s d R team doing before and then after you did that and how did that, you know, down funnel, how did that impact everything? So, um, definitely bring in data and like, you know, if you’re in Rev, you definitely know how to run some good reports and Salesforce, right? So, um, I I would absolutely bring those [00:19:30] data points. 

Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree. Make it relevant. Um, look, yeah, that person on the other side of the desk or the other side of the Zoom, however you’re interviewing is talking to you because they have a problem. Yeah. Listen, you’re a little active listening. Ask them what their problem is and you don’t have to necessarily solve it. In that interview, uh, this was years back backwards how I actually got my, my rev op job when I was at Terminus. Um, I remember talking to the c r o and, and he was describing a specific problem in the interview. I was like, look, I don’t have enough time to spin up a new sandbox, [00:20:00] like build a workflow roll or process builder to show you how to do it, but I can do that after this interview. And I remember, um, him describing the issue and I remember spinning up a sandbox or jumping in trailhead and building something very quickly as far as a, you know, process. 

Speaker 3: Here’s what you should think about to go solve that problem. Shoot that over to them in an email following up after your interview. Hey, c r o I know you described this problem. Here’s how I think about going to solve it. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I mean, you’re gonna build a lot of credibility and you’re also gonna help somebody out with a little bit of free work. Sure. But that goes a long way when they’re interpreting [00:20:30] how you’re gonna fit into this company and how, what value you can bring to ’em. So, um, speaking, speaking of that, I’ll, I’ll, I’ll jump to this, uh, to the next question. When we think about it, um, hiring processes are tough because we want to vet out candidates in a, in a timely manner and really make sure that we know what to evaluate and why to evaluate. But how do you go about building a a good hiring process? And this should be something that both candidates and hiring managers on this call should be listening to because it’s a matter [00:21:00] of efficiency while also getting what you need outta that candidate. But how do you think about the right, uh, the right hiring process and keeping it efficient? 

Speaker 2: Yeah, so, and like efficiency is key today. Like I, I have a lot of things I can say about this question, but like I, to tailor it to like the market we’re in today, uh, it’s really gotta be efficient now and, and by, I wanna say fast, but like, obviously you have to thoroughly vet someone. So efficient is the word I’ll use instead. Um, first of all, [00:21:30] I think intro call needs to always be with the hiring manager. Um, have an HR call after that. Um, like go into a million reasons why, but just it, it’s, it’s best practice. Um, I think you need to have things, first of all, there needs to be a lot of communication amongst the, the hiring team, the stakeholders who are interviewing. Um, they need to be meeting regularly, going over, you know, all the pros and cons of every candidate they interview. 

Speaker 2: Um, have it structured so that like you don’t have three different interviewers asking the same question and the candidate repeating things. [00:22:00] Um, cuz keep in mind like interviewing at a company that is the candidate’s first impression of the company. And if it’s like long, arduous and repetitive, like it’s not really, you know, anyway, um, so there’s that. I think, um, like we’ve talked about having like a, a take home project, um, first of all, don’t make it like an eight hour long one that’s, you know, a, a turn off to candidates and, and b like you guys really gonna go through that. Uh, second of all, the 30, 60, 90 day project [00:22:30] is just, it’s so generic. Like, I I I have an example that a candidate sent me for a VP sales op shop a few years ago that like, I could send to you and it’ll work, like just changes the company name. 

Speaker 2: Like they, they’re so, so generic. 30, 60 nineties, please, uh, make it something relevant to your company and like that requires some actual thought-provoking stuff. Um, whew. Yeah, I mean, we’re, I, I can go on for hours about this. I mean, um, uh, first of all, right now, like, there’s just so many, every candidate that you talk to right now is, is [00:23:00] likely interviewing elsewhere or getting hit up by a hundred recruiters, us included, um, about other jobs. So keep that in mind. You gotta move fast. Like, period. You gotta move fast. Make a decision. Also, last thing, uh, I mean, so many companies like looking for a unicorn and like, I know some companies who’ve been interviewing for months interviewed so many great candidates, but like, oh, they don’t check off every single box. You’re not gonna get 20 out of 20 things from a candidate, period, end of story. So you gotta prioritize that. 

Speaker 3: I, [00:23:30] I completely agree. And, and, and Kristen actually, uh, agrees with you as well. Uh, glad to hear you say that about the, uh, you know, the eight hour projects plus 30, 60, 90, look, I agree, you can, you can Google a 30, 60, 90 at least a template. And most of the things that people are gonna answer that are gonna be templated, um, I hate to say that, but like, it, it, it’s fact of the matter of where we are now. Um, I will say I’m, I’m a fan of the projects, as long as they’re efficient, don’t, don’t go ask somebody to go and do a data exercise. It’s gonna take them, you know, 8, 10, 15, 20 [00:24:00] hours, like come through. If you’re gonna create, this is what, this is what we do, especially on, on all levels of our hiring side. Um, we do have a little bit of a practical, a little bit of an exercise. 

Speaker 3: It should not take you longer than maybe an hour, hour and a half to think through it and put some thoughts to paper. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but I’ll give you a peek under the, the sonar covers. When we put people through exercises, honestly, it’s not necessarily to see what their answer is, it’s to see how they got there and what questions they ask to get there. I think you learn more about a [00:24:30] candidate, hearing them ask questions to you because it starts to show how they think. Are they a critical thinker? Sadly, you, you don’t get to go ask that question in an interview like, Hey Jerry, are you a critical thinker? What’s your answer gonna be? Yeah, Brad, I am. Of course, I’m a critical thinker. Like, you have to exemplify that. You have to actually like show that. And doing some of those exercises I do think is a good way of, of finding out how people think and how they ask questions. 

Speaker 3: But again, you have to be efficient with it. Um, I know we’re getting, uh, getting close to the top of time. We always wanna [00:25:00] leave enough time for folks to ask any more questions. Um, I do have one, and then I know what, we’ve got two more questions for you, Jerry, but, um, I’m gonna scroll back up here. I think there was one, uh, uh, Jackie Glenn actually asked this. Um, what are the key skills that VCs are suggesting to a leadership team that they should be looking for? First? I’ll, I’ll take a stab at it while you think of the answer. Um, I hear this often. We’re actually gonna have some folks from, uh, from Red Point Ventures on, um, early next year. We’re, we’re already coordinating the one of the shops talk [00:25:30] episodes so that we hear from venture capitalists and from investors themselves. 

Speaker 3: So, um, we’re gonna have some friends from, uh, from Red Point jump on, but I think they are looking for the, the reason they are pushing so many companies go find that rev ops rockstar, go find that person that can help your company grow. It’s because we have an influx of data. Um, so you have to have somebody that can help wrangle and aggregate data in a meaningful way and tell the right story with that data. Um, obviously that data is hinged on what your tech stack looks like and how you are architecting that [00:26:00] to enable your team. Um, but the reality is every investor and every venture capitalist, I’m hopeful, I’m not misspeaking here, if our investors are on, they would agree with us. Um, they’re looking at efficiency metrics and you can’t look at efficiency metrics for your sales and marketing and customer success without having the right data and the right tech stack and therefore the right supporting cast behind the data and the tech stack to answer it. Um, so when I talk to, to our investors and, and other ones, um, they’re all wanting this role mainly so they [00:26:30] can make sure that the way they see the business operating is coherent. They can put it all together and tell the right story of efficiency. But I don’t know if that’s the same vibe you’re getting or not, Jerry, when you think about how Yeah, how VCs are suggesting it. Yeah, 

Speaker 2: When I, what I’ve heard from them mostly is I, I would agree, definitely the data driven piece, um, that’s huge. Um, they like, of course they typically like people who have like, been there before and, you know, brought a company five x growth or whatever the number is. Um, definitely like strategic thinkers as well, kinda [00:27:00] like you said. Um, I, I, I’ve like, I’ve seen interview questions from them directly where, where like, it’s very abstract question and it’s more like, how do you think about the answer to this question more than like, did you get the right answer? So, um, and it’s tough to like, you know, teach that and learn that skill, right? You just kind of gotta innately be like that. Um, of course, you know, a lot of ’em like MBAs, uh, and consulting background, um, you know, ideally they’re gonna want someone, you know, you know, top 10 b a couple years at McKinsey, you [00:27:30] know, but like, let’s be honest, not, not all out there for rev ops, but <laugh> 

Speaker 3: Not everybody works at, uh, at McKinsey or Bain for a while before they jumped into Rev op Ted. I didn’t work for one of those logos, so, yeah. Um, I don’t 

Speaker 2: Really know many either, but, uh, 

Speaker 3: I dunno, I know a few, but not, not a ton. Um, a lot of folks stay at both those companies, so, uh, retention’s high for them. All right. This is a fun one and I’ve been waiting to ask, ask this the entire time. What are your rev hops recruiting pet peeves? 

Speaker 2: Alright. [00:28:00] Oh man. Um, first of all, rev ops is a function and it’s not just a single person that’s, um, luckily it’s been getting better, but like that is just the number one thing. I can’t say enough. I feel like every time I ever speak or write down anything, I’m, I’m writing that, um, a lot of companies kind of underestimate their issues when they’re gonna hire. Um, you know, they think one person’s gonna solve it. Um, a lot of ’em underestimate how garbage their tech stack is. Um, and they think like, they’ll, [00:28:30] like during the interview process, oh yeah, we have all these strategic initiatives for you to work on. And like the person gets in there is like, wow, your sales force hasn’t been updated in four years. You have 15 people with admin rights. How, how, how am I supposed to run any reports on this? 

Speaker 2: You’re da. Anyway. Uh, I hear that all the time. Um, like I said, companies being way too picky looking for 20 out 20 things. Um, or like very hot on like, oh, we want someone who comes from this company or went to this school. Uh, I mean, you, you and I read both know some great rev ops people [00:29:00] who come from companies that no one’s ever heard of, and they’re not really like sexy industries. So, uh, there’s that, um, companies treating rev op like a buzzword. She’s like, we need to hire rev ops cuz it’s like the hot new thing. And then they don’t like know really what they need and want. They don’t know how to vet people. Um, looking for a unicorn, like looking for a M f a unicorn all the time. Like someone who’s a Salesforce architect and like a former McKinsey sales strategy person and like a [00:29:30] data scientist from Google all in one, like, please, oh, and then, and then they want to pay that unicorn like dirt money, um, <laugh>, you know? 

Speaker 2: Um, yeah. Oh, oh, another thing, last thing. Uh, not the last thing, but one other thing. Uh, C’s like, oh yeah, we’re gonna double and triple the size of our sales team. Uh, but no rev ops gets no hires. Just, just just that one person. Yeah. Um, yeah. Um, a lot of companies say too, like, they’ll lie like, oh yeah, this person’s gonna build out a team, you know, in their first few months. And [00:30:00] then they, they don’t after like two years and then they’re calling me on the phone and I’m like, wow, I thought you’d have management experience by now. Like, no, there’s no buy-in from the top. Um, yeah, that’s, uh, anyway, I I, I know we’re kind close to time, but I, I could go for two more hours on this question alone, but 

Speaker 3: Oh, I, I, I know, I, I literally put it in the chat and I think everybody else is just totally a green rev ops is not a person, it’s a function. And, and now in the day and age that we’re in, and again, with, with what we do, you and I get to talk to rev ops folks all day, every day. Um, [00:30:30] it is not a one person army anymore. This is a team effort. You don’t, I I can’t tell you a single successful one of our customers that has a, a total one person initiative of it. Now, a lot of these companies that, that we’re working with, um, you know, Bruce, who has jumped on here a good bit, he’s always on WS ops. Um, he just jumped from a, a bigger company to a smaller company and he is a one person shop right now, not for long. 

Speaker 3: He’s already got headcount approval, he’s got people that he’s wanting to bring in. And so, um, it’s not to say that you can’t be a successful [00:31:00] one person shop, but you have to be forward thinking and understanding that there are so many moving parts of this and you can’t actually think about, uh, doing this totally on your own, not with the complexity of technology, with the amount of data that we have to aggregate and, and manipulate out these points. So, um, you’re spot on. We have to keep the, uh, yeah, the, the team language. So, um, I know we’re a little over time. We’re okay with going over for a few minutes, especially with some of the technical difficulties we had. So again, thanks for everybody sticking with us. Um, but I’ll ask one [00:31:30] more question, and again, happy to take a couple more questions from the audience too. 

Speaker 3: But, um, this is something that we ask every single person that, that ever joins, uh, shops talk. Um, I can’t wait to hear yours cause it’s a little bit of a different perspective talking with, uh, rev op folks and recruiting them. Um, but we always ask, and it’s so pointed in this discussion, uh, specifically if you were able to rewind the clock, fire up the DeLorean, go back in time, um, at the very beginning of your career, and I’ll think to make it specific for rev [00:32:00] ops folks here that are early in their journey, um, what advice would you give them? Obviously you have a perspective of it from hiring and watching people grow and excel, but, um, a lot of people in our community, and you’re in Wops, you’re helping people every day are looking for that growth. What advice would you give them, um, early in their career that they can grow, go and grow with? 

Speaker 2: Hmm, get, um, get really good at math and analytical stuff? Probably, um, cause [00:32:30] I’d say that’s like the main skillset when like companies are looking for like the really senior level. It’s, um, it’s like the, the analytical stuff. Like they have have, you know, five years worth of data, but like what are they doing with it? And, and how can we like, make better decisions, become more prescriptive predictive off, off of our data. So that would be the main advice I’d give to someone younger. Um, maybe math isn’t the the right thing to study, but get better with like data and analytics. Um, my main thing probably 

Speaker 3: [00:33:00] It, it’s not going anywhere and that’s the thing. It’s, uh, the, the reality of where we are and, and how this is growing. Uh, one of the best, um, this is one of the best, uh, best things that, that Kyle Porter and I were talking about the other day. The, the c e o of SalesLoft. Um, the level of complexity that’s happening right now in both the science side of things, the math side of things, which I’ll piggyback on your side is, is up and to the right <laugh>, we’ll just leave it. There it is. Yeah. The, the technology stack that we’re orchestrating is getting more and more complex [00:33:30] all day every day. The amount of data that we’re getting more and more every day is, is just wild. Therefore, we have to think smarter. We have to be focusing on the analytical side, the critical thinking side. 

Speaker 3: I love that advice. Make sure that you’re never losing touch of that. Be willing to learn, um, ask for help kid. God, we hear it every time that we have, uh, an episode like this. Most folks are always saying, jump into W Ops, jump into other communities. Jump into Rev Genius and, and the rev ops co-op and pavilion. There are so many of ’em out there that people [00:34:00] are willing to help and help other people learn. Yeah. Um, but man, the skillset you have today, and you see it on, on resumes, you see it as you help all of your customers. The skillset you have today is not gonna get you to tomorrow. So you have to keep leveling yourself up and growing. Am I right? 

Speaker 2: Yeah, that’s so true. Just like the same skillset that gets a company from like zero to 10 million is not the same. That goes from like a hundred to a billion. So, um, same thing with your skillset. 

Speaker 3: Yep. You’re, you’re spot on. And I know, uh, a couple of folks [00:34:30] were asking, um, you know, we, they either joined late or weren’t able to join. Um, we’ll have this coming up in our YouTube channel. I just posted the link to that YouTube channel. So, uh, be sure to go check out previous episodes. Uh, obviously our good friend Mon and Keith and everybody else that we know and hang out with in, in New York when I get to come up there have been on before, but check out previous episodes. Um, I know we’re a few minutes over jv, can’t thank you enough for jumping on. Um, awesome. Hell of an episode. Again, apologies for a little bit of the technical snafu earlier, but hey on, we roll the punches, we get things [00:35:00] done, right? Yeah, 

Speaker 2: That’s what you have to do in rev ops, right? Roll with the punches. So 

Speaker 3: Roll with the punches. I love it. Well, uh, yeah, exactly. Exactly. Well, uh, thank you everyone, um, really appreciate hanging with us. I know we’re a few minutes over. Um, most importantly, JB thank you so much for joining. Um, we are gonna take a little bit of a break over the next, uh, couple of weeks. We all know that we’ve got holidays coming up. We’ve got planning going on right now. We’ve got, uh, holiday parties for work that we gotta go to. Uh, we’ll have a couple of more [00:35:30] events and, and posts that are coming out from the W ops, uh, side of things. Shops talk will officially kick back up, uh, in a few weeks, but, uh, be on the lookout for everything else we have coming out. Thank you all for attending. Um, JB how do we get ahold of you if you have questions or if we’re looking for, uh, that next rev ops rockstar? 

Speaker 2: Yeah, I’m, uh, I’m on LinkedIn. It’s, uh, pretty sure it’s LinkedIn slash jerry rev ops maybe? I think so. Uh, Jerry Banora, uh, is my name. Um, also my email is JB 20 pine.com. Pretty easy, so, [00:36:00] um, yeah, otherwise happy to chat anytime. Love the community, love the rev ops people. They’re my favorite people in all of tech, so, um, yeah, 

Speaker 3: I love it. I love it. And of course, slack, him getting W Ops, he’s in there. Jump in. Oh yeah, I’m in there. Always ready to help. So can I get better on 

Speaker 2: Those notifications? Yeah, yeah. I got, I’m in there. There you go. <laugh>. 

Speaker 3: Yeah. All good, JB I really appreciate it. Everyone, thank you again for joining. Um, we’ll be back soon with another episode. Have a great rest of your Thursday. Rest, grace of your week. Talk soon. 

Speaker 2: Cheers. See 

Speaker 3: Everyone. Cheers.

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